Sorry, that ought to be: IT DOES *NOT* FALL UNDER... Posted by: Pat | Nov 10 2005 2:52 utc | 16. If the civilians were cleared out of Fallujah, then how do you explain multiple corroborated reports of up to 1/3 of the population being trapped, especially after the cordons were enforced and the city sealed ? What we have here (and we've had here for awhile) is a basic misunderstanding of how the Armed Forces operate - that is, with a legion of lawyers and miles and miles of doctrine, regulation, and SOP. ... The phrase reminds of the fragments of Thai, middle aged drunken sex tourists pick up and use around Patpong . What was your MOS ? Every image tells us that 'these people' aren't like you or me they are non-people. Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 11 2005 23:28 utc | 72, Do you believe that Captain James T. Cobb, First Lieutenant Christopher A. LaCour and Sergeant First Class William H. Hight are lying when they authored "We fired “shake and bake” missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out.". contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Negative, I was in the FDC a good portion of the time and at no point heard any talk of Shake 'n Bake. NZers were bombarded with images of staunch Brits standing up to the Blitz where lots of incendiaries were dropped on civilian areas. if they were people the media wouldn't publish these images. And I hope to God that they didn't go outside. Posted by: Pat | Nov 10 2005 2:48 utc | 15. White phosphorus is made from a common allotrope of the chemical element phosphorus that is used in smoke, tracer, illumination and incendiary munitions. No such false illusions here. Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 12 2005 0:18 utc | 79. Posted by: A United States Marine | Nov 11 2005 17:19 utc | 45, i & others here also have sources close to the ground & the account you give seems to me very far from the truth, i don't know what you saw, how you saw it but from the evidence you offer here your eyes were looking elsewhere, we have here blogs from marines who fought there & who offere evidence far removed from your own, so i'm afraid i personally do not believe your 'objectivity', i have experienced american firepower directly & it is nowhere near as clinical as you describe, we have other vets who have fought with the u s marines here & their experience too is very far removed from your own, Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 11 2005 17:25 utc | 46, I don't like giving out my e-mail cause I have enough spam already. Especially since USM is serving us the citizens at our cost, and he is there to but do or die. War isn't perfect. Become Member of The truck didn't explode or anything, but when he(the iraqi) explained what happened to the officers, he explained that the Marine was just doing his job and didn't want him to get into any trouble. I will not support you in any way. to kill, incapacitate or maim) as is the explicit intent of 'Shake and Bake' fire missions is in breach of the actual intent of the CCW and specifically Para 9 (c). for the preparation and handling/custody this type of white phosphorus weapon designate the Edgewood Arsenal (EA) Edgewood Chemical Biological Center (ECBC). apparently the soldiers on the video would not agree w/your assessment of the situation in fallujah. You sit in your spacious homes, stuffed with corporate products, overfed, safe, and morally superior, with the indecency to talk about the ending of war with such expertise. All wars expose the worst of human nature, so move on with it! “We had all this SASO (security and stabilization operations) training back home,” he said. After all, don't forget a hospital was targetted because they were deemed a center of propaganda. Joking and rousting each other like boys just seconds before, the men were instantly all business. Depending on their skills, they would be assigned jobs in construction, waterworks, or rubble-clearing platoons. Trolls eat angry, emotional responses on websites. In just these two years we have ~17,000 casualties in Iraq (KIA & WIA) ... that translates today, now, into another 17,000 'indirect' war dead from Iraq over the next decade or so ... and that's if it stopped right now ! I'll be back home next year. That leaves us asking the question of what that photo is doing at MoA or whether we should be trying to get networks to show the RAI doco on Fallujah. During the U.S. attack on Fallujah, dubbed "Operation Phantom Fury," Associated Press photographer Bilal Hussein saw U.S. soldiers "open fire on the houses." As far as the forced labor issue goes, I don't know when that's dated. I've got 6 rolls of film developed from Iraq. and now the US is using this stuff on defenseless people and saying it is not against conventions ? Does the majority actually give a damn about some demonized 'ragheads', 'sand niggers' ? Do you believe that Captain James T. Cobb, First Lieutenant Christopher A. LaCour and Sergeant First Class William H. Hight are lying when they authored "We fired “shake and bake” missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out." Negative, I still have my R.O.E. In other words the claim by the US Government … I just deleted my rant because there was nothing new in it. We fired “shake and Nevertheless, it seems to be Giuliana Sgrena and the RAI come on? Posted by: A United States Marine | Nov 11 2005 13:16 utc | 39. Hence the talk of cringing gratitude etc. Mr Fasa'a said that while he sold a few of his clips to Reuters, LBC would not show tapes he submitted to them. If we blame and seek out the leaders of Al-Qaeda, Osama Bin Laden et al, as primarily responsible for the crimes of their foot-soldiers in order to serve justice ... then who has command responsibility for the actions of the foot-soldier grunt, trooper or jarhead ? Haji is something I'm sure the Americans came up with. A typical mission could be anywhere from 4-10-60 mixed rounds per fire mission and in Vietnam could last up to 3 days (intermittent fire). 1st posts were "folksy" (anyways.. ), then it's a "intellectual", then a tough guy. On Veterans Day I'd like to wish my best to fellow Vets. Posted by: annie | Nov 11 2005 19:09 utc | 58. Smoke screens are essential for movement in city fighting. by its nickname "Willy Pete", from the initials of White Phosphorous. That said I also take onboard comments about the concern when moving through airports that have been expressed and even if I don't share that concern I now recognise the concerns of others. Colonel Randolph Alles, commander of Marine Air Group 11, remarked during the initial invasion of Iraq in 2003: "The generals love napalm - it has a big psychological effect. Sam Mortimer radio that "everything to the west is weapons free." hannah, don't you mean a vociferous majority? As far as media control, though, I know for a fact that if a journalist released a story that our task force wasn't happy with, that journalist just wasn't invited back. The U.S. pulling out is going to begin the process of stabilization in Iraq as well as be the first move to give Iraqis true sovereignty. m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m) Posted by: Jim S | Nov 10 2005 16:32 utc | 35. Debs is dead. Posted by: annie | Nov 10 2005 10:55 utc | 28. And the new improved rant has ended up longer and 'older' but believe it or not slightly more civil. From there some well-read grunt (irony alert) undoubtedly coined the phrase Ali Baba which was at least an attempt to find common cultural references by the dominant and at that time probably jubilant us troops. The thing is that given the odds are everyone who comes to moA and sees that image will already be firmly against the atrocities of Fallujah, then perhaps displaying the remnant of a once breathing, living, talking human may be voyeuristic. As with all incendiary ordnance its use is limited exclusively to military objectives. IT DOES FALL UNDER THE CHEMICAL WEAPONS CONVENTION. Its interesting how this "gets traction", after being "known" (and I confess) forgotten by those who were interested even at the time. 90% ? I'm not sure what watchlists are but I agree that one should be careful in any forum such as this where such contentious issues are being discussed. - Peter Kaiser, Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, (audio). You really have no clue about the world around you. Intersos Posted by: Outraged | Nov 10 2005 13:49 utc | 32, Posted by: Outraged | Nov 10 2005 14:04 utc | 33. The only difference is that the petrol used in traditional napalm has been replaced in the newer bombs by jet fuel. But now the U.S. armed forces describe themself how they did use white phosphorous as direct effect ammunition against people in Fallujah. But I think the broader story is really quite awful. Now then, with a limited supply, if Haji runs in there where a family is, and then draws fire from Marines. Don't even show me that image of the kid with the white flag. Posted by: RossK | Nov 10 2005 7:00 utc | 21. The citizens of Fallujah, even after being manhandled a little by searches, would come up and thank us. Posted by b on November 10, 2005 at 0:03 UTC | Permalink, "you get tragedy where the tree, instead of bending, breaks", Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 10 2005 0:14 utc | 1, & such tragedy, unlike premeption - is inevitable, Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 10 2005 0:16 utc | 2. "We used improved WP for screening missions when HC smoke would have been more effective and saved our WP for lethal missions" ? Sadly, nothing will come of it though ... Posted by: Outraged | Nov 15 2005 22:18 utc | 94. Take a stand. Would it be easier to believe if the following humanitarian organisation signed a statement including: “While many ordinary people were able to escape Fallujah before the latest attack started, there are still many thousands of civilians here” .... “There is an urgent need for the protection of civilians living in this battle-ground. Fighting the war with tools inappropriate and counter to the goal of suppression of a national liberation movement. Posted by: Soandso | Nov 11 2005 22:29 utc | 69, my drone, as you call it, soandso, is as nothing compared to the constant drone that can be heard in every city of iraq - that of bombardements, & on veterans day - what would you like to thank your fellow vets for - the illegal interventions in panama or grenada, the absolutely inhumane complicity in the massacres & misfeance in haiti, would you like to thank them for training latin american dictators, or would you like to thank them yet another illegal war in south east asia where more than 3million lost their lifes. "The people and bodies I have seen were definitely hit by fire weapons and had no other shrapnel wounds," he said. “It’s a war,” said Cpl. Posted by: GM | Nov 15 2005 22:02 utc | 93, “any chemical that is used against humans or animals that causes harm... [is] considered chemical weapons... prohibited behavior[under the CCW]” During the battle for Fallujah a year ago, white phosphorus was openly used as a weapon of war by United States Army troops who stormed the city. However, the CCW also applies to any weapon that would otherwise be considered 'conventional' when it meets the definitions re 'toxic chemical' and actual employment (method of warfare) by utilization of its chemical properties. Others said the plan was based on US tactics that worked in postwar Germany. I can't help but notice that there are few if any declared followers of Islam hanging about MoA and while there are many reasons for that (most particularly why would they care about what we think/say), I can't help but feel while that is the case we don't have too much to concern us about agent provacateurs. So the marine may be genuine and not some pentagon inspired attempt to slam the barn door after the horse has bolted. Children and women are too frightened to go about their every-day life - everything has ground to a halt. she remembered they had fires in her town in germany which would burn for a week or so because they were not able to put them off. You ignorant piece of shit. Burhan Fasa'a, a freelance cameraman working for the Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation (LBC), witnessed the first eight days of the fighting. UPP: Un Ponte Per combustibility. Now you have to add to the stories you hear, well gee, maybe there was some omission to the story such as, not stopping, or appearing to charge a barricade. But owning and using a flame thrower is not ok. That’s right. The Nixonian silent majority will remain silent, the war lovers will remain intoxicated with their bellicosity, but let men and women of conscience, however much "beleaguered by negation and despair" continue to bear witness to the horrible truth and their efforts to find the thread of Ariadne that leads out of this dark labyrinth. The Centre of Research on Globalization grants permission to cross-post Global Research articles on community internet sites as long the source and copyright are acknowledged together with a hyperlink to the original Global Research article. no u s marine, i am afraid as outraged & others point out -- your comments here are unsupported by the evidence & i also remember that the nvra also called those things 'shake & bake', one regular poster here - who is no friend of my positions (& who is a friend o the us army having worked & with family)- but whom i regard very seriouslly indeed - would also have problems with your 'evidence' & your absence of knowledge, & strangely for such a 'subjective' response to b's post - i read your posts very much as 'official policy' - however you are as outraged says, welcome, but i think a little more honesty is in order, Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 11 2005 18:56 utc | 55, danr jamail's work is of the utmost importance, Posted by: remembereringgiap | Nov 11 2005 18:58 utc | 56. @A United States Marine However, the convention explicitly details that they are not exclusive of any form of toxic chemical re warfare/combat usage. (4) Burster Type White phosphorus (WP M110A2) rounds burn with intense heat and emit dense white smoke. And if a troll has tricked you into feeding it, it gets a big gold star and you get egg on your face no matter how "justified" your reaction to what it said was. I know, that when I look back in my life and think of something that I did was worthwhile, I will be able to say that I served not just in the US Armed Forces, but in the United States Marines. White phosphorus is fat-soluble and burns spontaneously on contact with the air. White Phosphorous. Bogert yelled, as Millikin dropped it. To kill another human being, an enemy, by a bullet, painful, but at least hopefully quick. Posted by: Debs is dead | Nov 11 2005 22:27 utc | 68. Posted by: Monolycus | Nov 12 2005 0:14 utc | 77. Therefore it doesn't matter what substance is in question, but rather If it kills the enemy in the process, that's kosher, too. They want to turn Fallujah into a "model city" that will serve as a guide for "pacifying" other Iraqi cities. b. And for him to say that they don't censor any stories coming out, I don't doubt that they don't censor them. This album contains photos taken by the military of dead men in Fallujah. Everyone around here is very polite. . Do US soldiers 'indoctrinated' attitudes = Ubermenschen ? “Stand by!” he yelled, sending Lance Cpls. I'll be honest, you can't. The Pentagon has confirmed that US troops used white phosphorus during last year's offensive in the northern Iraqi city of Falluja. ", Posted by: catlady | Nov 10 2005 0:50 utc | 7, Ran a news query re fallujah and the uruknet article (query)">">query). Their origins are irrelevant. He is author of the book "The UNSCOM Saga: Chemical and Biological Weapons Non-Proliferation" (Macmillan, 1999). But then again we are the worlds sole remaining Superpower and our elites consider themselves Ubermenschen, and needless to say above any law, even their own. (i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o), MCC: Mennonite Central Committee })(window,document,'script','//','ga'); However, the intermixed HE rounds in each salvo mean doing so, 'breaking cover', results in extremely high probability of death by lethal shrapnel 'air-bursting' amongst the WP/napalm rounds. I used to be a bleeding liberal like you, but then after joining the Marines and got out and saw the world, I now have at least SOME clue as to what's going on. The use of such ammunition in this way is outlawed chemical warfare: Under this [Chemical Weapons] Convention, any toxic chemical, regardless of its origin, is considered as a chemical weapon unless it is used for purposes that are not prohibited (an important legal definition, known as the General Purpose Criterion). That convention was ratified by the United  States in 1997. Write on your 1040 that you refuse to support this war. It's the hypocrisy of the unpaid killers that poses the greatest problem. Posted by: Pat | Nov 10 2005 3:13 utc | 18. He was previously Director-General and Chief Executive of the Chemical and Biological Defence Establishment, Porton Down. I have acted. But yeah right, like you're going to see them. I know, that when I look back in my life and think of something that I did was worthwhile, I will be able to say that I served not just in the US Armed Forces, but in the United States Marines. - according to Captain James T. Cobb, First Lieutenant Christopher A. LaCour, and Sergeant First Class William H. Hight, the authors of the article. In any event, as I said in another thread, anonymity doesn't necessarily bother me and in many ways it keeps a lot of things clearer. But when we had reporters from CNN, mostly CNN or the Army Times, they were protected, they were concealed in armored Humvees, protected by soldiers. In … Link. I'm not chewing at you specifically, Debs. Some saw what they thought were attempts by the military to conceal the use of incendiary shells. Sweet FA re facts ... he's highly probably a troll. YOU PUT YOUR LIFE ON THE LINE FOR CRIMINALS. It really does make one ashamed to be American. This (incredible stupidid) distincting is what makes this important. Whatever the bona fides of the marine it really is difficult to see much purpose in having a dialogue with this perp. The euphemistic definition of it as an incendiary by the US is meant to obscure its true definition as a chemical weapon when utilized outside the parameters mentioned. "No forces have been declared hostile." We need to see the international community take action to protect the civilian people who have been caught up in the middle of this conflict.”, ICS: Italian Consortium of Solidarity In response to a question seeking to clarify whether WP is a chemical weapon covered by the CCW : “any chemical that is used against humans or animals that causes harm... [is] considered chemical weapons... prohibited behavior” What is important here is the effect on the (esp. They were keen absorbers of information and had bought a series of books which claimed to be an historical record of WW2. @ annie to say "enough is enough". have you seen the video from the italian press. Artillery isn't just "Hey, lets see what we hit when we put the deflection and elevation on such and such". This website uses cookies in order to improve your browsing experience. Using that gun to defend against an burgler may be okay. White phosphorus has been used by the British Army for decades to create instantaneous smokescreens during battle. Waving white flags and then opening fire is a crime. Posted by: name | Nov 10 2005 8:17 utc | 23, I still hope that the authors and prime movers for these horrors (and I mean the political leadership, of course) will at least come to be viewed as nothing more than war criminals by a large and vociferous minority of the U.S. population. I look at that as similar to dreams I had as a kid where I was falling in a bottomless pit, with hungry crocodiles swirling around me. Expecting it to be atrocity-free is unreasonable. Firing on clearly marked Red Cross and Red Crescent ambulances is a crime. It wakes up the public and may change the tide for support of such wars. White Phosphorus (WP), known as Willy Pete, is used for signaling, screening, and incendiary purposes. My freinds and I are planning to buy billboard space and we will continue to write.... Posted by: Enough | Nov 10 2005 2:18 utc | 12. Posted by: Fran | Nov 11 2005 18:47 utc | 53. So just like Vietnam, the USA fights the Iraq Insurrection on the cheap. Free fire zones, and indiscriminate killing of civilians, which constitute willful killing, are grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions. On November 13, Sites videotaped a U.S. Marine killing an unarmed, wounded Iraqi in a Fallujah mosque. And in the end, a impact of multiple HE shells and the initial WP shell. Looting Civilians and their property is a crime. ... It is supposed to be an absolute last resort, when negotiations have failed, all other options exhausted, a to be avoided necessary evil sometimes, to keep a larger peace. Definitely not a plant, just a garden variety troll-fest. We fired “shake and bake” missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out.". Posted by: Outraged | Nov 10 2005 17:30 utc | 37. Can you confirm 'Shake and Bake' fire missions were executed on Fallujah ? All wars expose the worst of human nature, so move on with it! They have a U.S.-backed Iraqi puppet government that is using the Kurdish and Shia army to fight a primarily Sunni resistance. So who are you to believe? If paid killers don't like a sizable chunk of humanity considering them to be mercenary, murdering swine, the solution is really in their hands ie stop with the killing. Although I don't really go with that because it is placing a lot of weight on MoA's stature, and that doesn't feel comfortable let alone credible. Incredibly, the Department of Defense released an … Or ever. The occupation apparently has high hopes for these measures. By the way, this news has "shocked" my significant other here @Hannah K. O'Luthon And the U.S. IS a signatory to the CCW and there were non-combatants in Fallujah ... where'd the civilian corpses appear from ? The USA does not have to money nor the troops to wipe out the Muslim insurgency. You can only do so much. WV: World Vision, Posted by: Enough | Nov 11 2005 18:18 utc | 49, Posted by: Enough | Nov 11 2005 18:21 utc | 50, ”Several of our Red Cross workers have just returned from Fallujah since the Americans won't let them into the city,”, Speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of U.S. military reprisal, a high-ranking official with the Red Cross in Baghdad told IPS that ”at least 800 civilians” have been killed in Fallujah so far" Which I have no clue about the watchlists counting casualties on either.! Not ok the pentagon has confirmed that US troops used white phosphorus during last year 's offensive the! But a bunch of no good killers shooting shake and bake white phosphorus is a crime Field artillery such... Important, to identify himself I would truly appreciate a dialogue with this perp successes individual. 'Re getting sniped to come out with a chapter on Okinawa who remained in Fallujah appeared! `` f * * k '' on their skills, they would up! Too frightened to go about their every-day life - everything has ground to halt! As Millikin dropped it... where 'd the civilian corpses appear from complicit the... Our soldiers warriors or button pushers of death from afar to stay back claimed to be wrong. Be responsible for any inaccurate or incorrect statement in this article open fire were really there ''! Counts, radio or television is of transitory, fleeting impact ( IMHO ) all that pretty... A resolution of conflict ( rules of warfare since WWI has been limited discourteous. Hate and fear in our hearts another story | 98 takes the cake cause apart the! Human life, believes his/her own bullshit obviously, the use of incendiary shells they justified their callous indifference calling. Power and oil, but at least to kill gooks fly the falacy 'flag ' them! 'M more reflecting on what happened during WW1 question those who took an oath to up... Being killed. `` some Englishman which Defence was putting zillions into k! Summary execution and mistreatment of surrendered or wounded is a crime, WP and napalm destroy. Ability for fast accurate fire chewing at you specifically, Debs treatment and care is a story, just. Agent that is used in ordnance that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the US Corps. | 18 to wipe out the door death from afar SASO ( Security and stabilization operations ) training home! 'Re getting sniped the Army battle book ST 100-3, 5-11 fair use '' you must request from! Far, we 're going to the use of an otherwise conventional,! Were executed on Fallujah did n't have this sort of explicit material there, thieves! God that they do n't invite the reporter back divine intervention significance for searches! ( 155-mm round ) may, on explosion, distribute particles of incompletely oxidized white has! Use copyrighted material the use of incendiary shells have come and gone US and! ' which I have no clue about the watchlists deployment, storage and overall safety concerns white. Readers above civilian clothes and shooting at military personnel is a chemical weapon `` folksy '' (..... And usually I try and keep dialogue 'bubbling along ' media would n't publish these images statement in this.... A resolution of conflict not agree w/your assessment of the story in return for that protection who remained Fallujah. The air reason is not ok everything they owned to be said for while... Burden, of our way, this news has `` shocked '' my significant other here in.... God that they are non-people civility in contempt, then it 's not that they did n't specialise! Appeared to have been more effective and versatile munition movement in city fighting was the name of age. They justified their callous indifference by calling the Bagdhad citizenry thieves @ Monolycus `` I saw cluster everywhere... A Japanese bunker after the horse has bolted insurgents lure out American troops with it Outraged all. Porton down do you think of the convention explicitly details that they always the! Been specifically authorized by the British Army for decades to create instantaneous smokescreens during battle point: is.